tv Lou Dobbs Tonight FOX Business April 5, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm EDT
get out of the debacle. >> all right. and for me, a quiet week in economics. cmi the market mover. thanks very much for being with us. happy easter. i'll see you tomorrow morning hello, everybody. i'm lou dobbs. iran and six world powers announcing thursday a framework agreement on iran's nuclear program after eight days of marathon negotiations in switzerland. president obama hailing what he called a quote, good deal that meets america's objectives but many disagree including israeli government officials who tell fox news it's a bad framework that will lead to a bad dangerous deal. we take up those concerns with fox news strategic analyst colonel ralph peters and former governor john sununu. also indiana's governor mike pence yielding to the political
backlash backing away from his state's new religious freedom law, but what about the other 19 states that have the same law? why no political action against them? we take it all up with our attorneys on the case and hillary clinton's credibility crumbling. new documents contradict her claim that she used a personal e-mail server because she wanted to carry a single phone she said. and the scandal now costing her in critical swing states. we will show you how she's doing in the polls, where she's in trouble. we begin tonight with the iranian nuclear framework for a potential deal. president obama himself hailed the framework as both a deal and historic. >> this deal provides the best possible defense against iran's ability to pursue a nuclear weapon covertly. if iran cheats, the world will know it. if we see something suspicious, we will inspect it. >> iran's foreign minister,
meanwhile, claimed victory. >> none of those measures include closing any of our facilities. the proud people of iran would never accept that. our facilities will continue. >> joining us tonight former white house chief of staff under george h.w. bush former governor of new hampshire, john sununu. good to have you with us. >> evening, lou. how are you? >> your reaction -- i'm fine, thank you. your reaction to the fact that none of the facilities that the president himself articulated, what a year and a half ago, as absolutely unnecessary to any nation that is not seeking military nuclear power. what do you make of it? >> well it's been hard to get actual details. i saw a framework document but look, the administration was crowing that two-thirds of the centrifuges will be shut down. that means one-third of the centrifuges will continue to
run. and we have to see what kind of constraints they are going to apply to the use of those centrifuges. i suspect that the iranians will get to run their most modern ones so it's not like cutting two-thirds of their capacity. it may be like cutting their capacity in half or even taking 40% off it. the second question is that i have not been able to get an answer to in what i have been reading is where the enriched material that exists now is going to be kept. is that going to stay in iran or is it going to go to russia as the u.s. had been pushing for to be converted into commercial fuel rather than weapons grade. and those two big issues still have to be dealt with in the details, and as you know with an agreement like this the devil's in the details. the third concern i do have is that the iranians were doing a pretty good job of using our deadline against us and using the president's eagerness to get
an agreement put together against him and they actually at that last cycle there had the u.s. negotiating against itself. and you know in any negotiation when you get to that point, you are losing rather than winning. >> losing rather than winning on this deal seems to be the sort of acceptance by the administration that it is a deal while acknowledging that it is not. it's a strangeoric on the part of the administration for the president to be talking, hailing this deal while at the same time admitting there is no deal at all and that the next 90 days will be critical in constructing some range of agreements. >> they're going to get a handful of something and when they get the handful of something, they are going to redefine it to look like a sweet little puppy. >> well, it's going to be fascinating to see if even the puppy shows up here, because the president is now caught up in
this process. it is a process of his own making. it goes back to his election, his campaign election, in which he was criticized in 2008 for saying he would deal directly with iran. he has lived up to that promise and the reality is as he is focusing on keeping one bomb away from iran, a nation russia, with thousands of warheads, is running rampant over ukraine and making threatening noises toward much of eastern europe. in fact, threatening nuclear, nuclear warfare with the baltic states and with denmark. >> well, even beyond that, lou, iran itself is doing mischief in syria, it's doing mischief in funding the rebels in yemen, it is putting money and arms and
tactical support all over the middle east and it has our allies like saudi arabia and the emirates extremely worried. >> but the good news is -- >> -- negotiating with iran, they are still running wild in that region of the world against our interests and against the interests of our allies. >> absolutely. pursuing their strategic interests while we simply don't have a strategy at all in the region and whatever policies we put forward and initiatives, that failed outright. good to have you with us. all the best. john sununu. indiana's governor mike pence signed into law clarifications to the state's religious freedom act. the move comes after a national firestorm of criticism both in indiana and arkansas. fox news correspondent shannon bream with our report. >> we are here to announce that it's fixed. so we're looking to the future. >> reporter: following what some indiana lawmakers say has been a campaign of misinformation, they are introducing a compromise
they hope will satisfy those looking to both protect religious freedom and prevent discrimination against members of the lgbt community. >> they can co-exist. they do co-exist. that's for everyone. religious liberty for all and freedom for all. >> reporter: the new language will reportedly explicitly bar discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity, a provision indiana does not currently have on the books as part of any state law. prior to the announced revision at least one major protestant denomination, the disciples of christ announced its opposition to the new law and vowed to pull a planned national gathering out of indiana. now in the wake of the announced modification, advocates like the beckette fund for religious liberty are expressing dismay. quote the original rfra would give people their day in court. the proposed fix would be a green light for driving religious people out of business. several potential 2016 gop contenders including the only officially announced candidate, senator ted cruz, have rushed to
support indiana governor mike pence. but pollsters say depending on how the issue is phrased, it may not be a factor for 2016 voters. >> if you make a list of all the important problems facing the country gay rights competes with climate change and campaign finance reform for the lowest issues on the list. that's true for republicans as well as for voters overall. we are not talking about social issues. we are talking about religious freedom. i believe religious freedom will be a fundamental issue in the 2016 election and it's to the benefit of republicans that it is. >> reporter: a short time ago, indiana governor mike pence signed the so-called fix to the state's religious freedom law. it's important to note that the law doesn't allow business owners to simply say they won't participate in something that violates their religious convictions. they could still be sued and would have to mount a defense in court. also today, arkansas governor asa hutchinson signed a religious freedom bill, but not until after lawmakers had
revised it in the wake of the indiana controversy. lou? in a major blow to the saudi led coalition yemen shia rebels today fought their way to the commercial center of the port city of aden, seizing the presidential palace in that key port city. the capture of the palace comes just hours after al qaeda terrorists freed about 300 inmates from a prison in mukalla east of aden. joining me back now with the framework agreement on a potential nuclear deal with iran senator tom cotton blasted the obama administration. he issued this statement saying quote, there is no nuclear deal or framework with iran. there is only a list of dangerous u.s. concessions that will put iran on the path to nuclear weapons. in addition iran will get massive sanctions relief up front making potential so-called snap back sanctions for inevitable iranian violations virtually impossible.
my next guest agrees, saying a combination in appeasement have never produced a good outcome. joining us now, congressman mike kelly, member of the house ways and means committee. good to have you here. >> thank you. good to be with you. thank you. >> the president quickly changed his rhetoric from framework to deal as if a deal had been constructed even as he acknowledged that it isn't a deal. what do you make of what we do the little that we do know of that? >> the little is this. there's no such thing as a red line or deadline with this president. we know that. they come and go. there is never any sanctions put into place or increasing sanctions. i would just say this. right now we don't really have any idea where this so-called deal is going. it's not a deal. it's framework. everybody that i have talked to so far looks at it says this is a very dangerous path we're on. we have legitimized their bad behavior. they have secret underground enrichment facilities so we are saying they will have to shut
down two thirds of them. really. really. what are we saying to them? we are saying absolutely nothing to them and look who sat at the table. united states, uk, france, germany and by the way, russia and china. not really people that i want to sit down with. these are the people i would trust to forge a deal. just doesn't exist. >> in that framework agreement, we do know this. because the foreign minister of iran who has gained suddenly parity and is a peer of the secretary of state of the world's only super power says they will keep all of the nuclear facilities whether they are below ground, above, whether they are heavy water facilities or processing facilities. this is extraordinary. >> it's not only extraordinary it's absolutely stupid. we have allowed them to have stature in the world. the world super power, the united states, has now gone to iran, one of the largest state sponsors of terrorism in the world and said we want to negotiate with you one-on-one. we want to sit across from you
and have a dialogue. really? that has never happened before. it makes absolutely no sense. it's the wrong path to pursue. >> so why is the house why is not the senate, i will leave aside the question of the president of the united states himself, is not dealing with the bellicose language of representatives of the russian government, whether it be toward the latvian states whether it be toward denmark or nato itself, this is becoming outrageous and this is a president in the face of these threats who refused to meet at the request of the nato's secretary general himself refused to meet with nato. >> i want you to think speaker boehner has brought in prime minister netanyahu to speak to us. >> i'm not talking about netanyahu. i'm not talking about israel. i'm talking about russia its threat for europe and those specifically. >> that's why we had the president of ukraine in also. i think for most of us that have studied history, you look right now, this is very chillingly similar to germany in the '30s.
russia that continues to move forward and to overtake things. it's always the same reason. there is russian citizens who are not being treated right or unjustly by some of these nato nations and we have to move in their best interests. if we have learned nothing throughout history again appeasing and accommodating is not the way to do it. it's the one thing we know that will embolden this type of action going forward. >> very quickly, your thoughts on governor pence in indiana, governor hutchinson in arkansas relenting on freedom of religion acts that they put in place, running like scalded cats while a number of presidential candidates stood up for them among them jeb bush rick perry senator ted cruz. odd behavior and not exactly the kind of conduct you would expect by the way, from governors who apparently didn't anticipate the reaction to legislation emerging from their own state legislature. >> i'm a little bit surprised
that the governors have taken that position. >> which governors? >> well i know governor pence because i served with him. i know how he thinks. i know how he feels. i think it's a little bit odd now that we are allowing this to take front center stage really, we're not trying to take anything from anybody. we're just saying people do have a religious conscience and can act that way. >> i haven't heard either one of those governors actually talk about freedom of religion this week in those laws. i think the concerns about discrimination are entirely valid. and should be honored. but the idea that these governors are acting as they did just dismissing freedom of religion without giving it equivalency if you will in terms of their public statements i think is -- i mean cowardly. >> all of us as american citizens don't want to see anybody discriminated against. by the same token we do believe in religious freedom. our first amendment very clearly specifies and points out the most important part of our constitution. >> i'm familiar with it. >> i know you are. >> it is great to see you.
>> good to see you too. >> a lot going on to cover. >> there's a going on but it can be taken care of. we will get it figured out. >> i have been waiting six years and about eight before that. thanks so much. >> happy easter to you. >> happy easter. up next congressman luiz gutierrez head lining a pro amnesty rally. that's no surprise. but you may be shocked by the presidential hopeful sharing the stage with him. and spring break out of control in some parts of florida. one florida city fighting back against a sun-soaked drunken, often stoned mischief and violence. our attorneys are on the case. you pay your auto insurance premium every month on the dot. you're like the poster child for paying on time. and then one day you tap the bumper of a station wagon.
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jeb bush moving further to the left as he gets closer to announcing a run for the white house. the former governor of florida will headline a pro-amnesty event with democratic congressman leading amnesty advocate luis gutierrez next month in houston. bush and gutierrez have been named keynote speakers. bush has labeled his amnesty
plant plan the quote grown-up plan and told voters in new hampshire he could be supportive of a path to citizenship for those in the country illegally. currently there are 20 states with religious freedom restoration laws. only four of them have public accommodation laws that protect gays and here to talk about what is motivating the protest against indiana when so many other states have similar laws and another 12 states are considering adding those laws joining us is lis wiehl, fox news analyst, author of "lethal beauty." also erin erlick, attorney. good to have you with us. let's start with why why is this happening in indiana? >> because i think pence and his whole group went too far in this legislation and what he did, what pence did, is he put this legislation akin to illinois when then senator barack obama voted for it. but then you look at the illinois law and you look at the indiana law and there are at
least four differences, one of them being that the illinois law deals with private citizens, not corporations. so when you parse down -- >> that shouldn't have an impact. >> it does because -- >> what does it have -- anything that has an impact, corporate -- a corporation, you are the lawyer, is a citizen. >> but that's not how it's written. the other thing is that a corporation or an entity can say look, we are going to be quote unquote, burdened by having to sell to gay individuals and so we are -- >> no no no. it doesn't say that. >> it does, absolutely. >> does it say burdened by gays? >> burdened. burdened. that's the word. >> your word. erin is trying to get in there. >> let me clarify. the language of the statute actually does mirror a lot of the statutes that are already on the books and it really mirrors the strict scrutiny test which is con law 101.
we are not going to get into all the legalese of that but it's basically saying there can't be a law that would substantially burden anyone. >> what's wrong with that? >> it goes further than the other laws. i take illinois only as one example but it goes further than the federal law, further than the other laws and that is the problem today. you can go back and say -- >> further in what? >> the federal law in 1993 the landscape has completely changed. >> i would agree with precisely what she just said. we do need to look at the origin of the federal law. >> bill clinton. >> it was not bill clinton. it was the supreme court of the united states. it's a very famous decision that i actually learned when i was ta law 101 and that decision was when the supreme court said to two native american gentlemen who were consuming peote as part of a religious ceremony that -- >> you can't make this stuff up. >> it was a clinton legislation. >> it was clinton legislation but the very important point was the supreme court did say there didn't need to be a compelling
interest, compelling government interest. that's when the federal legislature stepped in. >> i mean, really simple language, particularly for me. >> simple english that meant under the supreme court's interpretation any law as long as there was a public interest would justify the infringement of religious freedom. >> versus a compelling interest something that -- >> exactly. >> we are getting a little bit into the weeds here. >> you are all into the weeds and still we don't understand the political motivation because in each instance, only four of these states have laws that protect the very interests you're talking about, which is ending discrimination against any group but particularly gays. >> that's exactly the point. right now we -- >> you could have fooled me. >> we are still developing this area of the law. you have to remember. >> we can't dawdle. >> it's very simple. indiana goes further than the other states on the one hand --
>> what do they have to do to fix it? [ speaking simultaneously ] >> which is superior? freedom of religion under the first amendment or a public accommodation? >> you are touching on a very interesting subject because -- >> i knew i would get there finally. i knew i would get there finally. >> it comes out of the hobby lobby decision. >> yes. >> as a female i take great issue with that decision. >> everybody has to get over something because you can't win them all. >> that is the law of the land. >> it is the law of the land. i want to see you salute right? >> i can't salute a law that discriminates against me. i can't. >> you pick and choose just like barack obama. >> i'm not picking and choosing. it's a protected classification. [ speaking simultaneously ] >> proof is in the pudding. >> whatever.
>> the governor is walking back and saying i want new legislation on that because he was embarrassed this weekend. >> yeah, he was. i think we have to ask ourselves and dig a lot deeper about why because in there is the real story. >> we know there is pretext here. we know this law on its face is not discriminatory but is going to be discriminatory on impact. >> the question here is, is the hue and cry that has arisen and the focus on indiana, because when you are looking in 19 other states that have it and the protests broad and general and levied against the federal government, i believe someone is discriminating and i have to leave it here. >> those states implemented that legislation in 1997. in 1997 -- >> things change. the constitution for folks who think that way -- it's a living document. >> it's the puddle. the waffle. >> thank you both.
erin, come back soon. i don't think we have had as many food groups in a conversation. >> now you are making me hungry. scientists at the university of nottingham say they found potentially a very old cure for a modern illness. researchers recreating a 1200-year-old anglo-saxon potion and found that it kills up to 90% of the mrsa super-bug in mice. that remedy was discovered in a leather-bound volume of the "leetch book" one of the earliest known medical textbooks. the ingredients, garlic, onion, or leek, wine and bile from the stomach of a cow. and the medical authorities say it is indeed effective and promising given the experiments to this point on mice. up next here, all of those obama scandals leading to
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a few thoughts now on hillary clinton and the congressional investigators who are breathing down her neck. benghazi select committee chairman trey gowdy wants hillary clinton to give his committee a transcribed interview by the 1st of may. on his list of questions to be asked and answered why did clinton wipe her private e-mail server clean? >> we are going to have to have a separate conversation with secretary clinton about this e-mail arrangement that she had with herself and that conversation is going to be separate and apart from any conversation about what happened in benghazi. i need to talk to her. i need to ask -- i need to ask what she did and when she did it and importantly, why she did it.
>> congressman gowdy in my opinion indulging in a little emphatic ambiguity. to his credit he's not promising any outcome, merely sharing his frustrations and assuring that server-gate does live on in the media. much to the cha grin and most certainlyly the annoyance of the clintons, americans are beginning to pay attention. a new quinnipiac poll shows hillary trailing senator rand paul in the state of pennsylvania and jeb bush in florida. but it doesn't stop there. clinton is also now under water in a number of states when it comes to polls on her honesty and trustworthiness. the scandal obviously beginning to hurt clinton in some of these polls. but as for congress, why should we expect a house investigation of clinton's e-mails to turn out any differently than past investigations of scandals? fast and furious benghazi, irs or any of the others.
gowdy's a good prosecutor but he's working uphill here and let's be honest about it. there has been no resolution in the secret service mess, even a change ifn leadership hasn't improved things in that troubled agency and the new director doesn't appear to be a whit better than the last. speaker boehner's lawsuit against the president over obamacare has gone nowhere since it was announced to great fanfare last year. on its third set of attorneys with no resolution in sight in the courts. the only scandals where there has been anything remotely close to anything resembling resolution, those contempt charges against the attorney general, eric holder and lois lerner. congress voted to hold lerner in contempt of congress last may because she wouldn't testify yet the u.s. attorney for the district of columbia has done absolutely nothing and the obama pointee steps down from his post
tomorrow. that seems inconvenient doesn't it? that's right. more delays. and contempt charges against attorney general eric holder as a result of his refusal to turn over documents in the fast and furious scandal have amounted to nothing. well almost nothing except to see a federal judge drop the contempt charge all together and order the attorney general to turn over all of those documents. well he turned over 70000 some of them. congress said they weren't enough but he did so on the symbolically important day before the election last november and we have heard no more about it from the republicans or from the attorney general. the investigation of hillary will no doubt go on. gowdy and his colleagues will no doubt make a good faith effort to get to the truth. but as to actually bringing hillary to account in the e-mail scandal or benghazi, for that matter there is every reason to
doubt. now our quotation of the evening. there is an increasingly pervasive sense of not only failure but of futility. the legislative process has become a cruel shell game and the service system has become a bureaucratic maze, inefficient, incomp incomprehensible and inaccessible. eliot richardson, president nixon's attorney general who refused to fire the watergate special prosecutor, archibald cox and resigned. rather different times. but perhaps not as much as we might think or want to think. we'll be right back. president obama celebrating the so-called framework for a nuclear deal with iran. benjamin netanyahu is not. colonel ralph peters on the deal. ♪ at mfs, we believe in the power of active management. every day, our teams collaborate around the world
you should pick that up. [girls laugh] oh you're such a dork. loser. here. let me help you with that. oops! ha ha! announcer: every day, kids witness bullying. oh look! your crush is looking at you. [girls laugh] poor you. ha ha! announcer: they want to help but don't know how. bully: see? no one here's gonna help you... announcer: teach your kids how to be more than a bystander. visit stopbullying.gov. breaking news now. israeli prime minister netanyahu has now responded to the president on today's so-called framework agreement with iran. the prime minister telling the president during their telephone conversation quote, a deal based on this framework would threaten the survival of israel, end quote. fox news strategic analyst lieutenant colonel ralph peters, joins us. good to see you. >> hi lou.
>> let's start with first your reaction. netanyahu could not be more succinct, nor could he have been much more devastatingly critical of this so-called framework. >> nor could he have been much more right. look, today, the easter bunny came for iran. it was just absolutely stunning. anybody who wants to know the bottom line on these pathetic negotiations need only google iranian foreign minister mohammed javad zarif's news conference today. you don't even need to turn the sound on. javad zarif was so happy. he was ecstatic with this deal because iran gets what it wants, sanctions are going to be lifted. now, i know that there's no formal agreement, there will be no lifting of sanctions until iran demonstrates good faith blah, blah, blah. sanctions are over as of today. the russians and chinese will be in there by saturday. europeans by monday. they will be cheating and obama
is going -- listen let me tell you what the deal means to america and the world. this deal means -- it's not a deal. this framework means that for the next three months, iran gets another breathing space and the ayatollah khomeini will probably play bad cop to zarif's good cop. they will work us. they play us wonderfully. but we are not going to do anything to impede iran's aggression throughout the middle east for the next three months. money is going to start flowing back in. if there is a final deal it is going to enrich iran, whether iran enriches uranium or not, and iran will have more money to spread its aggression against our interests across the middle east and oh, by the way, iran is not giving up a single nuclear facility. there will be no snap inspections. this is a loser from jump street.
>> right now right now, iran is winning in yemen, it is winning in syria, it is winning across the middle east and it is achieving, it appears, or it has within its grasp a hegemonic domination of the region and by the way, we all knew its intent its ambitions, its strategic goals. meanwhile, another strategic goal is being achieved in eastern europe and that of vladimir putin with as i pointed out earlier in the broadcast, 7,000 warheads, no comment from this president at all. what do you make of that? >> well, this president is so inept that he is now relying on russia to make the deal work with iran. so we won't send arms to ukraine. now the threats in the last 48 hours which are really breathtaking but russian generals telling american officers that you may not send any more troops or any more
support to the baltic nations, they don't want us in poland. they are telling us what we can't do in nato member states and threatening us even with nukes. now, i do not -- >> i'm going to have to ask you to wrap it. >> putin is working us like the iranians are working us. >> colonel ralph peters, great to see you. thank you. hillary had a bad day. a benghazi backlash, bad poll numbers. that's next. the pursuit of healthier. it begins from the second we're born. after all, healthier doesn't happen all by itself. it needs to be earned... every day... using wellness to keep away illness... and believing that a single life can be made better by millions of others. healthier takes somebody who can power modern health care... by connecting every single part of it. for as the world keeps on searching for healthier... we're here to make healthier happen. optum. healthier is here.
breaking news now. the chairman of the house oversight committee jason chaffetz, moments ago issued a subpoena to two secret service agents. those agents allegedly on the scene in an early march incident in which two of their colleagues allegedly drove drunk and disrupted an active bomb investigation taking place outside the white house. secret service director joe clancy has refused to make the agents available to testify before the oversight committee so chairman jason chaffetz issuing the subpoenas. joining us tonight democratic strategist, fox news political analyst jerry roginski and pulitzer prize winning
columnist, michael goodwin. this indiana law what is motivating this? you've got 19 other states that have the same law. >> well the only other state that i believe has this exact same law i believe is south carolina. the problem with this law is it's different from the other states you mentioned and the federal law, this law treats, thanks to the hobby lobby decision, treats companies as they would individuals. so it says that while you may have a religious view and now it says lou dobbs inc. can use its religious view so it's a corporation and presumably not religious, is now allowed to use that same basis to discriminate against people. >> but that is an artifice throughout law. a corporation is a citizen. >> it is now. >> it has always been in nearly every instance regarded as such. that has been a decades-long effort on the part of corporate america to get that standing. go to citizens united, for
example, as a case. your thoughts about the politics driving it? >> well i think the politics are there's a sense of people out there trolling looking for things to jump on partisan-wise. i think that pence as i can tell has admitted he didn't handle it well, last week he was saying he stands by it. >> he's had two runs at it and messed them both up. >> right. which i think he has conceded. we will see if he wants to make it significant or cosmetic to try to stop the bleeding. >> let's turn to jeb bush and rick perry, going to his defense and then he's running like a scalded cat. i mean, it's peculiar to see bush step up rick perry step up and for him to effectively fold. what do you think? >> well look, jeb bush i think has made the calculated decision at some point that he's not going to run a typical primary campaign. he will run a general election campaign in a primary. if he wins the primary that way he will be strengthened going
into the general election. >> it seems reasonable. do you agree? >> it's a very reasonable strategy. i think republicans, other republicans would be smart to emulate it. >> what's not reasonable in the minds of many is jeb bush and luis gutierrez, the democratic leading activist, really for illegal immigrants, amnesty, open borders they are going to headline a convention in houston together. i mean, that's -- >> i think she's right, he's trying to run a general election campaign now. but i think gutierrez is like sticking a stick in the eyes of conservative voters who don't like this immigration push. so if bush it seems to me if he wants to make a case to republican voters he should not be hanging out with gutierrez, who is so far extreme on this that i think bush has kind of given up the ghost that he's a moderate. >> as we wrap up here i have to ask you very quickly how much trouble is hillary in? it looked like she might get out
unscathed. now she's starting to melt away in the number of swing state polls. >> i'm not sure how much of that is based on the recent scandal. i think it's more a matter of hillary has always had this problem. this is the problem. the problem is not this. the problem is the more hillary clinton is up and above the fray, people love her. the minute they start engaging with her, her numbers go down. this goes on in health care, it goes on and on and on. >> do you think she started with 80% support -- >> she can still have a big margin of error. i this i thenk the narrative that she's not honest has been reinforced once again and that's what's showing up in the polls. roughly half the people in some of the swing states think she's not honest and trustworthy. that's a very tough place to start from. >> i got to say, governor o'malley came up with the line so far of the campaign when he said the presidency isn't a crown you pass back and forth between two families, taking on the front-runners in both parties. thanks for being here. appreciate it. up next breaking
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prison reform after serving more than 30 years in law enforcement and three years in prison. joining us tonight former new york city police commissioner bernard carrick, author of this new book, "from jailor to jail my journey from correction and police commissioner to inmate." it is great to have you here. >> thanks, lou. >> congratulations on the book. >> thank you, sir. >> it's got to be i would think just an incredible experience to have been the head of corrections, the head of the police department, and to also be in jail and then writing a book how to reform that prison. >> listen, i have run two of the biggest agencies in the country, the nypd and rykers. i had enormous success, unparalleled in the country at reforming, reducing violence, reducing overtime, creating all kinds of efficiencies. i know how the emsystem is
supposed to work. i know how to fix it. then i went to federal prison and i realized we are incarcerating thousands of people a year that don't need prison to pay for their lesson and economically it's crucifying the country. >> a couple of issues. one, do you think there is racial prejudice in the judicial and law enforcement system that results in the disparity that we see in prison? >> yeah. i don't think it's as much in the law enforcement. all this racial overtone that's been out there i don't believe there's as much of that as there has been disparities in the sentencing laws. >> how about corrections? >> yes. the sentencing laws, the judicial system, the crack cocaine disparities and all you have to do is look at the numbers. here's the problem. you take urban communities, primarily black communities, you take young kids 18 19 years old for first time non-violent
low level drug offenses and you stick them in prison for ten years or 15 years, they turn into monsters they turn into real criminals and then you send them home. >> what's the solution? >> the solution for that is drug courts. the solution for that is get them back on track, put them in a mandatory boot camp. teach them respect and discipline and life improvement skills. give them something to live for and most importantly, dismiss their conviction. because as long as that conviction stands over their head, they are done. they are finished. >> it's a tough ask in reform. what do you think, what is it going to take to reform the system make it more humane? make it more effective, reduce recidivism which is stubborn and has been for decades. >> there are hundreds if not thousands of advocacy groups around the country looking at prison reform. there is one thing that's going to change the system and that's our legislators. they have got to work together. they have got to come together
as a bipartisan group which they are starting to do now, and they have to change the laws. if you don't chan we will be talking about this 30 years from now. >> the book is "from jailor to jailed, my journey from correction and police commissioner to inmate number 84888-054." >> i got the number. >> i thought i might have it. i wanted to share that with some who might not have it memorized. great of you to be here. i understand and i was surprised that you haven't talked to rudy giuliani your old boss and great friend for so many years. >> it's been a long time. >> how does that make you feel? >> look, i have talked about this and this is a small portion of the book but the reality is that we created distance early on to keep him out of the mix of the heat of my withdrawal from -- and the federal investigation, but what bothered me was that he's the godfather of my kids and i would have hoped he was there for them
while i was gone. >> bernard carrick great to have you here. again, congratulations. >> lou thank you. that's it for us tonight. we thank you for being with us. see you here tomorrow. good night from new york. tonight on "war stories," suicide piloting in the sky. >> it's a frightening thing because you know what they can do. >> hidden enemies on the ground. >> we knew we had run into something. >> these trucks were stacked with dead american soldiers, and they were loaded on there like wood. >> on okinawa, the last battle of world war ii. coming up on "war stories." ♪